Is Honest Debate Not Part of Rightful Liberty?

The Oregon occupation has been a very good learning experience for the III movement, but for very different reasons than many think about.

The biggest lesson learned to date is that we in the III movement do not have a single, unifying objective. While some will say it is “restoring rightful liberty” and similar sayings, this is so vague that it’s meaningless.

We in the movement have yet to determine what the desired end state is. In other words, in a perfect world, after we win, what do we want America to look like?

In Oregon, we have groups occupying the Federal building, with a variety of different goals. Some seem to be  deeply “old-school” ranchers who don’t like the federal government making it harder to use land that the ranchers don’t own.  Another group seems to clearly want to “pick a fight” and perhaps  incite another Waco.  Others seem to be in it for the purpose  of rebelling against anything the Federal Government does.  There may be other reasons.

It doesn’t seem that these differences were sorted out before they came together and we’re seeing the results. The stated objectives to the media were very unclear in the beginning and seem to be evolving as time goes on.

The problem with the III movement not having a central goal is that anyone can take an action, claim it’s a liberty event, and expect all the other IIIs and liberty-minded folks to support them. And they don’t just expect moral support.  They expect physical support such as boots on the ground, logistical support, and written support in the forms of blogs, letters, etc.

The support of the Oregon occupation has been mixed. Some in our movement have supported them logistically.  Some have actually traveled out there to be with them.  Yet others have written blog entries supporting the effort.  Others have chosen not to support them for a myriad of reasons.  Still others have taken to the blog and other media and questioned both the occupation and the occupiers.

In the absence of a overall III goal, such responses are to be expected. We all claim to be liberty-minded, so the inference is that we can and do think.  It’s part of makes us so different from the masses.

The reaction to those who question the occupation and the occupiers was not expected. Those who weren’t in support of the occupation have been called cowards, pussies, traitors and even enemies of liberty.  And these were the nice words.

It seems to me that if you were upset that there wasn’t an outpouring of support for the occupation, convincing others to support the cause would stand a better chance if you resisted denigrating the opposition and spent more time convincing people of the virtues of the effort.

If we are going to convince others of the values of the liberty movement, we need to spend more time explaining ourselves, and less time telling folks that if they don’t see the virtues of the occupation, the problem is with them.

I want a country where you can believe what you want as long as you don’t really hurt someone else. The enemy spends a lot of time and energy convincing folks that there must be blind support of the “approved” causes.  How does it serve our cause when some in the blog world tear apart, denigrate and call names to those who might not be completely convinced?

My blog entries have been clear in sharing my thoughts and beliefs. It’s never my intent to make fun of or denigrate folks that don’t agree with me.

My vision of liberty includes the concepts of open and honest debate. If you can convince me, then you’ve gained a convert.  If I can convince you, then I’ve gained a reader.  If we can’t convince each other, then we can agree to disagree.

We in the III/liberty movement need to have open discussions about what our overall objective is. We need to learn to differentiate tactical objectives from strategic objectives.  For example, we might agree that the BLM shouldn’t own so much land.  That’s tactical.  The strategic objective is federal government overreach in virtually every aspect of our lives.

We need to be honest with ourselves and recognize that liberty includes defending ideas that you hate. We see it all the time where many in the III/liberty movement will say on one hand that they despise the large federal government, but then defend some of the pieces of a large federal government that they like.

We must embrace the discussions and the debate. We’ll be better and stronger for it.

 

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25 thoughts on “Is Honest Debate Not Part of Rightful Liberty?

  1. Bottom Line Up Front.

    First Goal: FBI requests a Grand Jury investigation into the issue of corruption, conflict of interest (Sheriff is former BLM agent), destroying evidence, etc.

    Second Goal: New President (hopefully a conservative) pardons the Hammonds shortly after taking the oath of office.

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  2. In a perfect world, we would all be on the same page. The III Percent movement is, by it nature, a movement without Leaders. Individuals preparing for whatever comes and planning to support a cause (not yet clearly defined, as you say) once the opportunity presents itself.

    The world will probably not present us a galvanizing event that all of us can rally behind, unless the Communists in Charge make some huge mistakes. It is unlikely there will be a “Boston Tea Party” or a Lexington and Concord that outrages all of us enough to commit in body and soul. Our cause does not own or operate the media and the propaganda arms of the Dhimmicrat machine, and we will never be painted as patriots in the news. Only Victory will color that history.

    So when someone in our leaderless pack presents themselves to oppose a federal injustice, however imperfect their leadership or background, we would all be wise to give them the benefit of the doubt in at least moral support. As the original Rough Rider said, it is not the Critic who counts, but the Man in the arena. Critics we have in abundance. Men, even flawed ones, who try to make a stand (and yes, I agree they may have been advised by foolish and unflattering people) are at least trying. Those of us who have not supported them with tangible or even intangibles have less room to be critical. I count myself in that group.

    My recommendation is we watch and learn. I agree that we need more definition of the goals of our cause. We also need to garner further support, and advertise the small injustices (small to the country, but large to individual persons) visited upon us by the overreaching government. History needs to record ALL the government unfairness and corruption. And if, in the course of events, we use some of the same tactics used by our enemies [if Occupy assholes and BLM idiots can stage their sit ins wherever they perceive outrage and tomfoolery will garner support to their cause, why must we tie our hands at doing the same, and only protest where all in our movement are in agreement?], then let us not abandon those who took a stand, even if they failed or if they did not execute as perfectly as we would have wished. The last perfect Leader was still crucified and killed.

    Opinions are like assholes, sir. Everyone’s got ’em. None of them smell particularly well from where I stand. But I have dug in the septic systems of the real world and know the need to shovel shit many times in order to bring something better out of the muck. I am not sure how Oregon could have been executed better. I’m sure there are Lessons to be Learned. Their press and media operations lack a certain consistency and flair. If the Navy taught me anything, it is that the press is not our friend. Some media training for representatives of the movement would be useful. At least it would help us not look so much like crazies to the uninformed.

    Again, I do not have any problem with your observations. And name calling is nothing. We need to live with it. Men of Action don’t use flowery and conciliatory language to get their point across unless they are dealing with their wives. But Leadership isn’t always polished and perfect, and we would be wise to remember that until we all give up our day jobs and families and leisure possessions and dedicate ourselves to doing the legwork against, and suffering the slanders of the Communists in Charge, then we ought to at least give the benefit of the doubt to the leaders who do present themselves under the banner of our cause.

    Subsunk

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  3. Some things we should all be able to agree on are that our government has become far to intrusive,and that our government is forcing citizens to give up their land,their way of life,and their means of earning a living by decree,most often with zero public input,only the input of politicians,and
    well financed special interest groups.
    We should all be able to agree that there are far too many laws,rules,and regulations that can be and are used by government to arrest,detain charge and convict people of “crimes” for many really absurd things.

    Often the reason for government dictating what we an and can not do on our own land,and on supposedly public land is because some .gov agency,politician,or a combination of the two bowed to the demands of the environmental movement,and declared that due to the presence of a frog,toad,bird,fish,lizard,mouse,etc. humans can no longer use X square miles of land for any reason.
    It’s too bad if it stops all farming,ranching,logging,mining,hunting,trapping,fishing,and any other human activity-and it’s too bad if it costs thousands of jobs,or only a few dozen jobs,our government is going to force us to bow to the demands of the enviro-nazis.

    The EPA can stop you from building a farm pond if you dam a small creek on your own property.
    The EPA can prevent you from building a farm pond even if it’s spring-fed,as long as some of the water flows off of your property.
    You can be prevented from using all or part of your land because of the above mentioned critters supposedly living on your land.
    If part of your land is covered by water in the spring,it can be declared a wetland-even if no migratory birds/animals use it-and you can no longer farm on that land,or even mow the weeds down-it’s off-limits to you period.
    If the government wants to create a new “national monument”,wilderness area”,or national forest,national park-and your property is within the monument/park whatever,you lose all or part of your property,and the right to use all or part of your property.

    Most of the above deals with the current ranchers-vs-BLM/USFS fiasco taking place throughout the western U.S., but it affects all of us,and there’s nothing stopping .gov inc. and the enviro-nazis from doing the same anywhere in the U.S.-the wetlands and farm pond examples happen all over the country.

    Then we have all this politically correct nonsense-such as the banning of the confederate battle flag from public property.
    We have the government importing muslim “refugees” against the will of the majority of citizens.
    We have the government attempting to enact more gun control-again against the will of the majority of the citizens.
    We have those who live in the big cities dictating to the rest of us what we can and can not do.

    These are all things that need to be stopped-anyone disagree with that?

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    • Not a shred of disagreement here. Going to prison for burning brush that needed to be cleared, that did not get out of control or damage anything else around is WRONG!

      Subsunk

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      • Haven’t kept up on that one lately.
        I did read about a New Mexico rancher who had a large chunk of his grazing rights blocked due some likely fictional “endangered species”.
        How can an endangered species only be in one pasture,and not the surrounding ones?
        The enviro-whackos abuse the endangered species act,and get critters listed that are not even being close to endangered.
        use the decade long gray wolf “re-introduction” fiasco in the northern Rockies as an example-it took an act of congress to get the gray wolf-de-listed,then immediately-the enviro-animal “rights” eco whackos filed lawsuits in Minnesota,Michigan,Wisconsin,claiming that those wolves were somehow special snowflake wolves and were somehow a different species-and they got away with it.
        That is the biggest part of the problem.
        The second biggest is the continual creation of “wilderness areas” national monuments” and the BLM forcing ranchers and farmers off of the surrounding land.
        All of this is easily documented-yet when a person who’s had their life destroyed by the BLM,USFWS,USFS, or EPA speaks out,and others support him or her-we are all called crazy,conspiracy theorists,militants,welfare ranchers,criminals,terrorists,felons,and on and on.
        Over 90% of those doing the name calling have never lived outside of a big city.
        It’s insanity,and it must be stopped.

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  4. “The biggest lesson learned to date is that we in the III movement do not have a single, unifying objective. While some will say it is “restoring rightful liberty” and similar sayings, this is so vague that it’s meaningless.

    We in the movement have yet to determine what the desired end state is. In other words, in a perfect world, after we win, what do we want America to look like?

    Great question! And, one that has been asked for several years now: “What is the desired end state?

    Well, it doesn’t sound cool, but my vote has always been for, “Restore Constitutional Limitations on Government”, or more simply, “Restore the Constitution” because that end state will provide the greatest amount of individual liberty possible for each citizen. That end state will also override and cause rescission on countless unconstitutional and extra-constitutional actions by all three branches of the federal government. That end state will also cede back to the several States and the People powers that have been usurped and rightfully belong to the aforementioned.

    Thanks for the discussion.

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    • “Restore Constitutional Limitations on Government”, or more simply, “Restore the Constitution” because that end state will provide the greatest amount of individual liberty possible for each citizen.”

      That should be something that at least 90% of us can agree on.
      I would add that the insane maze of fed laws,rules and regs needs to be shredded,so this BS of charging people for fictional “crimes” like starting a back-burn to save human and animal lives, and protect property being describes as “eco-terrorism” stops,and civil asset forfeiture is ended.
      Also complete repeal of the NDAA, the Patriot Act,and the clusterf*ck that is Obamacare

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      • Yea but the one way to truly stop it is numbers and no one wants to move to like minded areas where we would have the numbers… Can you imagine if Christian’s tried to stage a anti-faggot in San Francisco even those that agreed with what they were doing would think they were crazy… Image a place that was so filled with Liberty lovers that communist would fear to tread there…

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      • “Yea but the one way to truly stop it is numbers and no one wants to move to like minded areas where we would have the numbers…”
        There’s starting to be more people moving into the Appalachian redoubt,and the same in the west.
        It’s not enough,but it’s a start.
        WE ain’t gonna change things overnight,or in a few weeks or months-it’s going to take years.
        We need enough people to move to the redoubts,and that is slowly taking place. It’s a start,a move in the right direction.
        We’ve all gotta start local-get politicians who will uphold the Constitution at the city/township,village level,then do the same at the county and state levels.
        Once that is accomplished,then it will be time to clear out the dead weight.
        People like Nancy Pelosi,Dianne Feinstein,Chuck Schumer,Harry Reid,Mitch McConnell and the rest of the batshit crazy scum sucking pieces of bovine excrement need to be run out of town-or be found swinging from streetlamps.
        Look at how long it took the left to get to where they are today-that’s what we face-decades- not months or years.

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      • I agree,but,we’ll just have to keep trying,keep getting a few families here and there to move to one of the redoubts.
        We’ll never vote our way out of this mess because the left has the electoral vote via all the good little leftists in the cities-most big cities lean way left,and almost the entire east coast is leftists as is the west coast.
        That’s a huge problem because they get the electoral vote due to most urban areas leaning left.
        That skews the vote for the whole state to the left,as those of us who do not live in one of the hives have our votes cancelled by the city folk.
        That’s why we need to get families to move to the redoubts. Higher population outside the urban areas balances the city leftist votes.

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      • I’m trying-if we don’t start getting some snow here-there’s no way I’ll be able to put together the $$$ this year.
        I have a total of 27 hours in to snow removal from Nov 15th when contracts start till now.
        Past years when we have had a warm Dec and Jan,Feb was like living in the Arctic temperature wise,and we got snow every day because lake Erie wasn’t frozen.
        Looks like that’s how this year is setting up-all I need is to get some cold wind out of the NW,and the lake Erie lake effect snow kicks in.
        Other work is scarce this winter,I think most people spent too much on Christmas,or they’re afraid of a repeat of the worst of 2008-2009 economy and saving as much as they can.
        I usually get all kinds of calls for bathroom and kitchen remodels this time of year,only did 3 since Nov.

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      • Well Brother to bad your not out here I could of kept you busy all winter…Some of the local boys are 13 houses behind right now…Not speaking of you since I know your situation but people would rather stay in place and get paid less, greater cost of living, more expensive housing, and not be able to build tribe rather than move…I could get them a job tomorrow if they said go but people are scared or too comfortable to even reach out…

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      • That’s a lot to be behind.
        I’ll still make some $$$,I’m hoping Feb./early March dumps a few feet of snow 2-3 inches at a time,with maybe a couple good blizzards with lake effect snow mixed in.
        It’s possible that I could head out there end of season which ends on tax day-April 15th.
        I would have no car,and no way to get around but…
        If they are that far behind-ask if they would be willing to pick me up in the mornings,and drop me back at home in the evenings.
        I would have enough $$$ to rent a house,and the wife and kids would head out after I’ve got a house-and a job that pays decent.
        Ask the guy,and let me know-could be a way for us to move out there faster.

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  5. I couldn’t agree more. Gavin Seim called me and the rest of the Oregon III% leadership “cowards” and “loyalists” because we didn’t agree with Bundy’s tactics. Guess what? Now we are the ones standing out in the cold between Bundy and the Feds. People need to get over themselves and learn to communicate better.

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  6. I am reminded of the unfortunate occurrence of having a conversation when both parties think they are talking of the same thing but in actuality they are not. And neither seems directly aware of the problem, They only know there exists discordance between them. So when one says ‘liberty’ and that we must fight for it what does the other think? This form of miscommunication is the underlying problem. Solve that and most everything becomes clear. The speaker owns the responsibility of overcoming that problem of differing perceptions.

    But remaining subjective, inserting oneself into it, is a very good way to ensure that the problem will NOT be solved. We all understand harsh language and name calling does not help. We learned this in kindergarten. Instead of raising our voices we raise our words. A practiced calm demeanor while articulating our argument in the most eloquent fashion possible will win over many.

    The prerequisite is to know your subject; know and understand the nomenclature, speak softly but with confidence. As always, be mindful that your listener may not have the same perception of a word that you do. Be ready and willing to supply definitions of terms so they may be on the same page as you. They may disagree with you but they will know where you stand and most likely they will be able to articulate the reason for their disagreement because you have provided the opportunity to educate. However, if you have in fact provided that opportunity and your cause is just, it is likely they will agree with you…except on their emotional level they will not allow themselves. So they remain in chains as slaves to their feelz. At which point you kindly remind them of that.

    BTW: every bit of the above can be accomplished in two minutes or less even if the subject is as important as voicing opposition to the overreach of government. An 8 year old can do this. An 8 yr old does do this, every watch a kid as he convincingly presses his parent into giving permission of that thing to which the parent would normally object?

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  7. +1 dtg… I believe in my heart that what we want is what was envisioned at the outset, a republic of many diverse states; united in and with a small federal government that provided the standing army, and the very few necessities (interstate highways come to mind) that were for the good of all states, not this bastardized leviathan we have now. Let the states have what was originally intended, take D.C. out of 99% of the equation…
    And… for the rest? “In God We Trust”.

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